Can Islam "make poverty history"?

TFTD: Can Islam "make poverty history" ?

(Originally posted on 03/12/2006)

Comments

[Chancellor]

Hmmmm..... Does Islam do anything, or is it up to muslims and humnaity at large to do stuff?

[abdurahman]

since you are the chncellor i am sure you are aware that the islamic economic system which was implemented in the past looked after the poor and needy.
maybe you need to restudy your islamic history

[Toppled Pyramid]

Brother Abdur Rahman,

Please ask yourself this....why didn't anyone ever write a book called the Islamic Economic System? Did they all fail to understand Islam till Shaikh Nabhani (rh) came along?

[chancellor impersonator]

thats a very deceptive comment you make.

did abu yusuf not write about economy under the khilafah.

as you well know having been in the islamic circles for years that due to the decline of the ummah, the islamic economic system book was written to make muslims aware about how the economy would function under the future khilafah.

please stop using clever words to decieve people.

[Chancellor Impersonator]

could you stop calling me the impersonator.

i as the chancellor of the economy made a valid point but you accuse me of impersonating the chancellor.

do you think gordon brown was a real chancellor or an impersonator ?

[Toppled Pyramid]

My dear brother "Chancellor impersonator", I am not trying to be deceptive, I am merely highlighting that actually there is no such thing as THE Islamic economic system, merely many Ijtihadaat performed by mostly modern thinkers about how potentially to run an Islamised economy reconciled with modern paradigms of politics and economics. If you have studied economics you would know that most of it's concepts are new and weren't discussed in classical Islamic literature at all. thus, when the bro (abdur Rahman) referred to THE Islamic economic system that was implemented in the past, my point was...that there was no one model that was implemented, and therefore its absence isn't Kufr!

As you well know, I am fully aware of the the book you refer to by Qadi abu Yusuf (I have it in the original). That is not a book on THE Islamic economic system but is a Hanafi book on taxation and other matters. As an example, Hanafi's insisted that Jizya must be called Jizya, but the Shafi'i's allowed for the Jizya not to be called the Jizya, but said that it could go by any other name such as "tax". And that is my point, that the absence of one specific model of an economy (via a modern Ijtihad which by definition isn't Qati'i)doesn't mean the absence of an Islamic economic system, it just means the absence of that particular Ijtihad. Which isn't the same as Kufr! I hope you reconsider your accusation against me and at least believe that I was making a particular point! Just because I don't adopt Islamism, it doesn't make me your enemy, rather I am still your brother!

[Chancellor Impersonator]

how do you know that i follow islamism. that is a wild accusation.

you may not be my enemy, but you seem to be an enemy of islam !!

[Chancellor Impersonator]

toppled pyramid before you set your economic policy, it would be a good idea to make sure you employ a chancellor that doesnt deceive the people and who doesnt make the haram halal and the halal haram.
otherwise your economy will be full of bankrupt ideas and the people you wish to serve will desert you.
another good idea would be to seek testomonies from those who have known the chancellor for years as to his sincerity.

[rashad ali Impersonator]

toppled pyramid the economic system book you refer to is ijtihad done by nabhani. it is not the only ijtihad on islamic economics but the system that was implemented in the past was based on islamic rulings therefore islam did deal with the economic problem decisively.
you seem to be implying that islam does not deal with econmics and muslims can make things up as they go along.
i hope you are not advocating western free market policies which have caused unknown misery to most of the worlds peoples.

[rashad ali Impersonator]

it seems you accuse anybody who do not agree with your views as an impersonator.
how do you know rashad ali is an impersonator. there are many rashads in the world, or is it the case that the rashad ali you know does not agree with the view that islam does have an economic policy !!!!

[rashad ali impersonator]

my name is rashad ali. why are you putting impersonator !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Chancellor Impersonator]

how many rashad ali's are there in the world ?

i as the chancellor agree with rashad that islam solved the economic problems of the world. so all those who say that islam does not have a ruling on economic issues are dilluded and confused about their islamic history.
when i get to run the economy i will make sure i do not take the western economic model as my source of guidance as this will lead to corruption and the starvation of millions and we wouldnt want that now would we !

[mustafa kemal Impersonator]

i must say what a wonderful website this is. i manged to destroy the islamic khilafah all those years ago and now you brothers are doing your utmost in preventing its return.
well done, i commend you for all your hard work, keep it up !!
i will be proud of you on the day of judgement !!

[iblis (aka chancellor Impersonator)]

ditto !!

my total love and respect for everything. you guys are my tru followers. i am going to cry as i am so happy today!!

again thank you !!!!!!!!!!

[Compulsive Communicator]

This is all getting a bit nasty. How about some actual debate, people?

[chancellor Impersonator]

why would you want to debate with me. i have alraedy told you i am a devious , deceptive, lying fraudster !!!
you need to debate with those who are actually doing dawah with the people on the street !!!

[Pacifist Islamist]

Dear Impersonator, you clearly know Rashad Ali. Have you tried to discuss this with him in person? It may help clear a few things off your chest.

[rashad ali impersonator]

do not fall into the trap of thinking i am in impersonator. that is the view of the moderator!
as for discussing with rashad ali, which rashad ali are you talking about as there are many !!
you seem to know a specific rashad ali but how do you know i am referring to the one you know !
if you knew the one i know, you would not be following his every word because he is not known for trustworthyness, honesty, sincerity etc.
the prophet (pbuh) said be careful with whom you make friends with in this world as they will be your companions on the day when you wish they wernt your friends !!

[Pacifist Islamist]

So have you personally advised 'Rashad Ali' on his 'trust-worthiness, honesty, sincerity etc.'? That would be the first step, right?

[Observer]

I'm glad I didn't make friend with you then, because regardless of whatever your issue is, you quite clearly are rude.

[Observer]

My comment was directed at the person who keeps putting up what I can only describe as rants (aka as the impersonator)

[muslim]

to the observer:

would you not agree that all the comments that are made on tftd are rants against so called islamists. the only people who use such language are those who hate seeing the unity of the muslims and fear the return of islam.
the people making the tftd posts have an agenda to confuse the muslims.
i dont think they understand or belive in what they are saying themselves

[Observer]

Dear Muslim,

No. I don't agree. A rant is a rude outburst made not to contribute intellectually to the discussion but simply to mock and humiliate. Your question about Islamism is being discussed on another thread by a knowlegable bro called Toppled Pyramid on a post called "The reasoning that will defend it"(the last post on the comments section)...it is proving to be an interesting discussion, I am interested in seeing it develop.

[observer]

on 2nd thoughts i agree, most if not all comments on tftd are rants by people who have an agenda to mislead the ummah.
as for toppled pyramid, he is an expert in double talk and playing with the english language.

[Vash]

"you may not be my enemy, but you seem to be an enemy of islam !!"

Dear Mr.impersonator who is using this forum to hide the shame of his undersized manhood.

I suggest you make wudu and repent for what you have said. You are in no right to accuse someone to be an enemy of Islam. I suggest you recite the shahdah just in case!!

[vash impersonator]

are u rash

[vash impersonator]

any person fighting the dawah to islam is an enemy to islam. simple as that.

[vash]

no one has right to accuse another muslim of kufr like you have done !!

[Observer]

I think this impersonator who has multiple personalities has shown clearly his lack of manners and Islamic etiquette. Yet he claims to be defending Islam. I am glad that I don't learn my Islam those who call other Muslims Iblis, which is a pronouncement of Kufr, and as the hadith says, it will reflect back on him so HasbiyAllah wa na'mal wakil.

[observer impersonator]

you are wrong observer.

islam does not need defending but the muslims need defending against this website.

as for the pronouncemnt of kufr, you need to let vash know. i do not claim any one is kufr but the ideas prpogated are unislamic.

[Observer]

Then debate the ideas bro...coz he thinks yours are unIslamic too. Why don't you put your 'unIslamic' ideas up to the tests against his 'unIslamic' ideas...why don't you discuss like a good Muslim? Why, in fact, can't you meet him?

Don't resort to childish insults which will only come back to haunt you, in this life and the next, aren't you meant to represent Islam? Did the Prophet (saw) ever insult even the Munafiqin of Madinah? No. He kept their names hidden so that the Romans wouldn't say "Muhammad [saw] kills his own" (Hadith). Here you aren't even dealing with a Munafiq (because they are disbelievers) but your Muslim brother...how can you IGNORE so willingly the Sunnah you wish to establish...I say, fear Allah my brother!

"i do not claim any one is kufr but the ideas prpogated are unislamic"

"Enemy of Islam". Lets use sesame street language for Mr.Microscopic.

Enemy: a person who feels hatred for, fosters harmful designs against, or engages in antagonistic activities against another; an adversary or opponent.

So, Accusing someone to be an enemy of Islam, means what children??? K K Kufar!

[???]

to observer:

i will take the view that you are sincere so advice is taken .

however the person you are referring to (i have given no name) does not know who i am therefore how does he know that i carry unislamic ideas ?

as for the ideas propogated on this website in the form of tftd, they are done deliberatley to twist the thoughts, concepts, ideas and evidences of islam. this is done by these people to confuse the muslims so they do not call for the full implementation of islam in life.
therefore i hope you are sincere enough to tell these people to fear allah (swt)also as these ideas they espouse will come back to haunt them in this life and the next

[Observer]

My dear bro,

Jazaks for heeding my advice. However, please allow me the time to say one more thing. Advice should be headed regardless of whether you think I am sincere or not, to be honest, sincerity is an invalid basis for rejecting adivice. Once, a Sahabi was fighting in a battle, and he grounded the Mushrik he was fighting. As he was about to kill him, the Mushrik pronounced his Shahadah. The Sahabi thought he was just doing it to save his neck, and so killed him anyway. This gave rise to the famous Hadith (A Shaqaqta Qalbah?)"Did you open his heart?".

So the Prophet (saw) taught us that even in such an extreme circumstance where all indicators point to the fact that the Mushrik was merely speaking to save his own skin, the Prophet (saw)commanded that the affair of the heart be left alone. Therefore, if a dying Mushrik who has been fighting on the battle field (against Sahabah nonetheless!) gives testimony that he is a Muslim, even HE is assumed sincere. What about a Muslim who merely gives advice? So I say to you brother, even if you thought I was "insincere", you are bound to accept my testimony as you are not allowed to believe that I am insincere. Therefore, sincerity has nothing to do with it. What matters is whether the advice given is sound. Even if an "insincere" person tells you to pray at prayer time, you must heed his advice, and not reject it.So sincerityy is not contingement to good advice. And to make it so leads only to Riya, Kibr and Nifaq, may Allah (swt) protect us all.

Secondly, it's YOUR opinion that these ideas are unislamic. It's THEIR opinion that anyone who talks about the "full implementation of Islam" as understood by HTB carry unIslamic ideas. They don't need to know you to have that opinion, as they are judging an idea, not you. For you to say that the organisers of this website "deliberately" twist texts is a grave accusation of Kufr, because to deliberately distort the Din of Allah is mocking the Din of Allah which is what the banu Isra'il were cursed for in the Qur'an, and it is Kufr. You have made a grave accusation once again, and I can only advise that you hold your tongue on matters of the heart...I repeat to you the Hadith of our Prophet (saw) "A Shaqaqta Qalbah?", have you opened their hearts?

So no, I will not advise them that they are "deliberately" twisting anything. They may actually believe that what they say IS the correct interpretation of the texts. I can only advise on matters materially evident to me, and what you speak of is a matter of the heart.

I will, however, and as you requested, advise all readers to Fear Allah, because such advice is never misplaced.

Jazaks

to observer

totally disagree that those who run this website are some innocent guys who have somehow misinterpreted the islamic evidences.

just shows that if that impersonator guy is not putting comments on this site, nobody from the ummah is.

may allah protect us from those trying to distort his deen . amin

[Vash]

Mr.Impersonator. You do not know the brother who runs this website and you have never met him. I know him, and I can say hand on heart he is not insincere. BY the way I am with HTB and proud of it, so I aint talking just from biased view. Just because the brother who runs this website wants to discuss topics which are a Taboo, all of a sudden he is devious, insincere, agent etc... If you want to discuss then discuss the topic, do not result in childish schoolyard abuse.If you dont agree with whats on this site, and dont want to discuss then dont say anything. You have made very harsh accusations, and you should becareful of what you say as you will be accounted for it on yomakiyama.

[debt collector]

salams

i do not condone some of the rudeness being directed to people who run this site or certain charachters who feature a lot in this section... because there is a big difference between being rude and joking, calling Rash-ED and making clear it is a joke is not that big a deal as i doubt he minds since i know him... and its kind of funny... but i advise the brothers on this forum whoever they are or whatever idea they may be on to control their tounges. As for brother VASH i am not very pleased with one of your comments, i have pasted it below along with my complaint

Below is a comment by vash who claims to be a member of HTB.

"you may not be my enemy, but you seem to be an enemy of islam !!"

Dear Mr.impersonator who is using this forum to hide the shame of his undersized manhood.

I suggest you make wudu and repent for what you have said. You are in no right to accuse someone to be an enemy of Islam. I suggest you recite the shahdah just in case!!

Posted by: Vash | 16 August 2007 at 04:12 PM

you attack a brother for being rude, and then you joke about him having a under sized manhood... this is very contradictive and corrupt thing to say. Please be a man and state your name and what area you are in, so that i may contact you through people i would probably know in your area. Because if you are member of HTB then what you said definately isnt ok and puts doubt on you in many ways. Please be honest and say who you are, if you are confident enough to say you are from HTB then state who you are and be honest.

[debt collector]

by the way, im not a big shot from HT or a member, just a supporter of their good work along with many other good islamic groups out there........ shame i can't say that about Husni Mubarak

[Observer]

I don't think he was joking...I think he was seriously forbidding the Munkar of some unsavoury character accusing people of KUFR left right and centre on this site (to the extent that he called someone Iblis) yet he didn't even have the guts to reveal himself, or prove from Islam that such accusations are OK. And he CLAIMS he is here to forbid the munkar, yet commits it himself!!!

Just as YOU asked Vash to "be a man" and reveal his name, Vash was attacking 'impersonator' for not being man enough (thus his point about undersized manhood) because he was calling people Iblis yet wasn't brave enough to reveal himself. I think there is nothing wrong in that, I think 'impersonator' behaved in a way that completely disregarded the Sunnah, and despite many warnings he consistently disregarded the Sunnah in his speech, I'm glad I don't take my Din from him and his likes, may Allah guide him and us!

You have probably misinterpreted Vash's point about 'undersized' to imply something else, because you used the word 'corrupt'...but I don't think most minds travelled in that direction at all my brother, except yours.

And please ditch this thing about reporting him to brothers in his area, such 'big brother' behaviour is totally Soviet and conflicts with the Sunnah, which is to cover for ones brother's faults and conceal and forgive them, not to report them and magnify them "He who conceals his brothers faults, Allah will conceal his on the Day of Judgement" (Hadith).

[debt collector]

salams dear observer

regarding my mind travelling too far, not a good point given that i know rash-ED and his mates well enough to know that his mind would definately travel that far as that is the kind of joke he would make, hence my expectation- that is the type of joke being made. Furthermore in your opinion since he hasnt done anything wrong why not reveal himself? as for hiding peoples faults, that is true, but in this instance he is a representative of more than himself and should keep his thoughts to himself if he wants to be hidden, also if he is a sympathiser id like to know who he is.

moving on..

Dear observer, who are you then? you are in to revealing identity... i think you are Rash-ed moving on from the old character chancellor.... i may be wrong... you lot have somewhat of a 'borg' like existence these days... actually a good chance im wrong come to think of it, cos Rash-ed normally would try to answer any questions... observer may just be a student of the dark side of the force....

as for impersonater, i think he should have more control of his tongue-seriously.... and since asked just say who he is, whats the big deal? not like you are gonna be put on a list to be thrown in to jail next time you go on holiday to the middle east... especially with their position of advising their mate Husni, he will listen to them and not hurt you cos they are friends who want to change the world together...

Also can someone answer some of my questions that i asked please

[Observer]

Debt Collector

I provided you with an Islamic basis to desist from your actions, and you have just carried on! About your expectation of the kind of joke you think they made. Whether you know them or not, this is suspicion as you are not certain, and thus is a sin so desist from it until you are certain, and you shouldn't even want to be certain, as you should be trying to hide, not expose faults.

As for your attempt at justifying soviet style reporting by saying 'true, but...' SubhanAllah! I provide you with evidence that you should conceal faults, and you say, "true, but"!!! My dear brother, the mind is not a basis for Ahkam. I have informed you that your responsibility is to conceal faults and not to report on people in a soviet like manner, I have proven to you this is from the Sunnah, and yet you wish to go ahead anyway?? Your Prophet (saw) said 'conceal faults' and you are saying 'report faults'...yet you want to 'rule' by Islam??
Please think this through, and I don't know what questions you are referring to, but you should address your behaviour first. Also, I'm not a fan of revealing names, I said that if someone wants to slander backbite and abuse people, they should go to their faces, reveal themselves, and then see how brave they are. I am not asking just anyone to post names up, and what's your facination with individuals. if you have something substantial to discuss, then discuss your ideas.

Salam

[Kabir]

Why does someone that doesn't use his name ask for others to use theirs????
Debt collector use your name!! Impersonator use your name!! Lead by example so that others will follow your example!!!!

[debt collector]

salams, im happy to reveal who i am (im not that famous) if everyone else is....toppledpyramid, observer, chancellor, rummani...as im sure you all know each other.

as for apologising about joking about others, i already apologised to anybody who took any offence in another thread. Re: observor it is strange that you only account me and not vash, ive accounted both sides of thought for bad conduct in this thread... my reason for wanting to know who vash is because if he thinks such jokes are ok i dont think it would be good for whatever dawa you do and i dont think htb who he claims to represent would be happy with his action and even more so if he thinks its fine, i dont think they would want him representing them if he thinks thats ok. If he thinks its ok then its not an issue of concealing- just explain why, if he doesnt think its ok and made a mistake then say so, as everybody makes mistakes and its normal, just own up to them and say sorry, its strange how observor speaks and vash does not. Anyway lets not turn this thread in to 'he said, she said... i think we have had enough of that by everybody.

Wouldnt it be correct to say islam is a motivator to make 'poverty history'?

Discuss, unless you think its too obvious or boring to comment on.

wsalam to all dwellers of the profound PSYCHOBABBLE

[debt collector]

salams from looking at whole thread, i realise i havnt been too nice to you guys, sorry bros. whoever the impersonator is give it a break cos its just silly, i would like some answers to some of the questions i have posted prior, without an interogation, i am honestly interested in knowing what you think on the questions i have asked, i think you should find them in the thread tittled 'the reasoning that will defend it'

jazaks for any forthcoming answers, may Allah (SWT) give us all hidaya

wsalam

[debt collector]

salams

does any know when maajid will release his document? cos it has been quite a long time...

wsalam

[Observer]

Bro Debt collector,

Salam and JazakAllahu Khayr for your last post, it was a nice gesture and I am touched by your self-criticism.

I have been told by someone I trust that Maajid Nawaz has finished his first article and is just waiting for it to be proof read by a scholar before he releases it, so it should be very soon InshaAllah. I will be reading what he has written with great interest.

[Observer]

Back to the thread,

Is there anything exclusive about Islam that solves the problem of poverty, or is it a problem that is solved by certain policies that are shared (like a sort of science) across all civilisations? I say this because looking back in this thread I see the earlier discussion about the fact that Islam doesn't have a fixed economic system, but rather differing Ijtihadat depending on the scholar. So isn't it a case of having continuous polices in place that are guided by the aims of Islam, rather than implemeneting "THE" Islamic economic system, (which I think based upon the discussion by Toppled Pyramid above is a misnomer and doesn't exist).

[check this out]

http://www.hizb.org.uk/hizb/global-conferences.html

[Waleed]

Taking a cynical view towards the question "can Islam make poverty history?", one could point out that for 14 centuries, the Muslims failed to make slavery history.

In fact, there wasn't even a half-serious attempt to abolish slavery, despite slavery arguably being a greater indictment of our societies than poverty.

The question should be "Can Muslims (not 'can Islam') make poverty history?" to which I can confidently say I'm sure Muslims CAN make poverty history. Muslims can do anything, by addressing the issues in the correct manner, not by throwing the Quran at everything.

Allah knows best.

[debt collector]

salams waleed

so are you saying islam does not call for the radication of slavery and poverty? as it may be the case, the muslims failed to achieve a goal set by islam... im not talking from the basis that i know much about the issue, but whenever ive heared the subject come up in a talk, it is always said islam had gradual stop to slavery as an objective, i dont know what the evidence is.......