Three's a crowd

TFTD: For the accession of the khalifah to be legitimate, the successful candidate must be "selected by the free will of the majority of the people within the state's region of influence".

In practice, given more than 2 candidates, the winner is unlikely to even win half the votes, let alone a majority. And with a 50% voter participation (given current voter apathy in established democracies) the actual popular mandate would be less than quarter of the eligible voters.

Q: Is that sufficient to affirm the bay'ah?
(Rummani)

Yes. Their silence will be seen as consent If they do not like it they should vote.
(from Prisoner of Consience)

a) those who dont vote are assumed to consent with what exactly?
b) Even with 100% voter participation, there will still never be a clear majority, will there?
(to Prisoner of Consience)

Isn't the concept of ahlal hali wal aqd redundant for modern day societies? Suitable only for tribal times. Given this the only way for ascension is a popular mandate. So choose between first past the post or proportional representation.
(from Genius @ Work)

How would proportional representation work when there's only one winner?
(to Genius @ Work)

More for Ummah's Council, but even for the khalifa's election you could argue for an electoral college type system which awards points or votes to wilayas via their distribution of population.
(from Genius @ Work)

Comments

[Toppled Pyramid]

It is with such discussions that the point (often repeated) becomes clear, that it is all about choosing what works, and is thus all Madaniyyah and not set and fixed by the text....as clearly Islam didn't set any electoral system, nor did it even oblige elections per se, as the bay'ah process was more akin to an electoral college where certain tribal leaders simply selected from amongst themselves (or in Umars [ra] case, appointed) who the leader would be. The modern interpretation of that as providing an "Islamic" system of elections is clearly constructed because the bayah wasn't elections but a selection and/or appointment. This process changed with each one of the first four successors (khulafa) to the Prophet (saw), and thus isn't fixed, but is based on what the best thing to do was.

Thus there is an Ijma, that the correct thing to do is to actually adopt whatever works! Islam provides no clear guidance on whether appointment, selection, or elections are preferred (and ALL can be and have been construed as Bayah), and if elections are the preferred contruct, it definately gives no guidance on how those elections should proceed. Thus, it is all about what works politically, and is not a textual discussion at all.

[Toppled Pyramid impersonator]

its also time for me to come clean.
i have been influenced by people who hate the deen of allah (swt) being established on this earth.

the chancellor has mislead me down the garden path.

i am also an ex islamist who is trying to mislead the people. however i am failing because nobody is listening to the rubbish i am saying. i blame the chancellor for this. he has ruined my islamic concepts which i once had.

so if you do not want to be mislead please do not listen to anything i say because i do not understand it myself and nor do i belive what i am saying !!

[Toppled Pyramid impersonator]

i am not an impersonator.

my goal is to confuse muslims who do not understand the deen. it upsets me when i see millions upon millions of muslims calling for islam.

i wish they wouuld understand we need to follow modern day scholars like mubarak, blair and bush.

[Toppled Pyramid]

Looks like the second stage has begun!!!

[zyborg]

toppled pyramid you seem to be having a discussion with yourself. i hope you dont get confused.

by the way please tell me are you majid nawaz in disguise !!!

[Kermit]

Could the real Toppled Pyramid please stand up?

[Toppled Pyramid]

Maajid is spelt with a double "A"!

[zyborg]

so you are maajid nawaz. why hide behind toppled pyramid ?

[Surprised]

I'm SORRY!!! Who's hiding???....The real Maajid Nawaz has been asking to meet members of the WC of HT for a while now, and is also willing to meet and talk openly with any member of HT...He believes that ideas should be matched with ideas, and thought should give way to stronger thought. He is also just about to release his first written piece explaining why he left HT...If you would like to meet him I suggest you leave your email because he would be very keen to meet YOU and anyone else that feels that they have something to contribute about HT's ideas.

[zyborg]

you suprise me ! you obviously know maajid very well. i do not have any issues with maajid but i feel sorry that he is being manipulated by others.

the leadership of the hizb tried contacting maajid but he chose not to answer the calls.
i for one cant wait to see his reasons. should make an interesting read

[Surprised]

Well actually....what happened was he was sitting for his exams that were delayed and so had his phone turned off, not receiving any calls, even mine...and when he had finished he then asked to meet his friends and former colleagues in the leadership. They didn't get back to him, and he is still waiting. If you would like to set up a meeting either with yourself or them please leave your email as I know he is keen to meet any one in HT. As for being manipulated, I for one, think that a man like him has a mind of his own and his arguments stand independently and are powerful! I pray that, when he finally speaks, you keep in mind that he was and is your brother and so what he says should be given a fair hearing.

[zyborg]

when his reasons come out i will base them not on personality but on what he actually says.

i am not personality driven unlike others.
but the fact that he associates himself with people like ed hussain who has been totally dicredited amongst the muslim community is a cause for concern !

[Surprised]

Correction...Ed Husain publicly associated with HIM, not the other way around. Maajid hasn't even spoken yet, let alone associate with anyone so I ask you not to make hasty judgements, like (it seems some academics) who are now saying that HTB are British agents because they associate with Clair Short et al in parliament etc... Surely association doesn't imply agreement in everything does it, even by your standards? This is despite the fact that brother Maajid hasn't associated himself with Ed, nor with Parilament, though I don't see what the problem is speaking with anyone, like HTB spoke to Parilamet, as long as there is a benfit for this Deen to be achieved.

[Surprised]

O..and you keep forgetting to leave your email, he's not hiding from anyone...I'm sure he would like to associate with you.

[suprised Impersonator]

i cant beleive what i have just said. i agree ed hussain is an enemy of islam how could maajid (i mean toppled pyramid) be associated with this character.
my apologies !

[Obi 1]

where there is an apprentice there is always a master

[Obi 1]

From what I read of HTB when they do meet with the leaders of the empire HTB are advocating the right of the muslims for self political determination that the muslims should be allowed to determin thier own political future and that they should be allowed to have the caliphat if that is what they desire, as for Ed and crew and I am starting to think that therr are a few of you, when you meet with the empire it is to agree with them and it is to fight the uprising (rebillion) aka the call for political islam, sharia law, unification of the muslim lands...)so I dont think you can compare when HTB meets with the leaders and when ED and Crew meet with the west.

The battle lines have been drawn

[suprised Impersonator]

who are u obi 1. friend or foe ?

[suprised Impersonator]

obi 1, my sentiments exactly. from what you have said how can i betray the ummah. you have convinced me to come back on the straight path
jzks

[Obi 1]

Depends, have you succumbed to the power of the dark side an evidence of this is if you have given bay'ah to Husni Mubarak, Colonel Gadaffi, Bashar al Asad, Khaleda Zia

[maajid impersonator]

the moderator obviously knows who suprised is.

i thought this was supposed to be an objective and anonymous blog site !!

[suprised impersonator]

my allegiance is to islam !

you have converted me from the dark side. jazaks

[Obi 1]

it wont be if you add your email address

[Obi 1]

When Anikin took on the role of Darth Vader he thought he was going to save the world man was did he get it wrond, seems like we have a lot of anikins about.

[Surprised]

Obi 1: Are you saying that its OK for HTB to meet Parliament (the "head of KUFR" [as HTB says]willingly (as it's in what THEY feel is in the interests of Islam), yet its not OK for ANYONE ELSE to do likewise?
So its one standard for HTB and another for all else? Or are ALL Muslims allowed to represent Islam by associating with people? You are not making alot of sense, please consider that if it's Ok for one group, it's ok for others...and this is not even the topic..the topic was what Zyborg said aout being concerned with Maajid associating with others...and i corrected him and mentioned that Maajid hasn't associated publicly with anyone, but even if he had what's the problem in meeting someone if he thinks that there's an interest for Islam? I advise that you maintain consistency so you don't end up where you were before the Iraq war, where you said that its haram to go to dont stop the war (even if it benefits Islam in someone elses opinion), yet you went to give da'wah (ie: to benefit islam)! Rather a tricky line to tread, i hope you see.

[Surprised]

O yeah...and for the third time, since Zyborg accused Maajid of "hiding as Toppled Pyramid", why doesn't he reveal his name and address and email, so that the REAL Maajid can meet him, as I am assured he would like to? Is Zyborg hiding?

[???]

are you the real or the impersonator suprised ?

[Surprised]

Please answer my question AND please leave your name and email address Zybrog, because you obviously don't like people who hide identities, so lets arrange a meeting between you and Maajid InshaAllah.

[Obi 1]

It is not the meeting I believe after the bombing of July the 7th Many groups went and held a special cabinet with Tony Blair, The problem, is the position that you take when you do meet with them, I cannot see for example how ED Hussain would champion political Islam for the Muslim land as an alternative when he is so clearly against it, he referred to it as something the extremist want a expansionist state was his term, I think he forgot that the a lot of lands were opened up by the Rightly gudied Caliphs who according to his terminolgy would be expantionists in the negative context.Please do not play with words lets take things for as they are otherwise we will start to babble

[Obi 1]

will the apprentice to the bidding of the master

[Obi 1]

in actuallity I dont see a problem of you guys meeting with Tony Blair as it seems apparent that nethier want to see the return of a Islamic Political Leadership and it Seems like both of you have a common problem HT

[chancellor impersonator]

having read all the comments so far on this blog, i must say obi 1 is by far making the most sense. may allah reward him

[Surprised]

Obi 1 you are not addressing the issue.

This conversation started by Zyborg implying something wrong with brother Maajid merely KNOWING (not even publicly associating with) Ed husain.

So the upshot was, it's OK for HTB to ACTUALLY MEET MP's and government when it's in their interests, but it's not OK for brother Maajid to KNOW someone!!!!! So I ask you, is it Ok for brother Maajid to KNOW people that you don't like????

This was NOT a conversation about who Ed Husain meets, and Im not here to defend him, he can do that himself.

Since you've opened up the topic about who meets who: do you not see what you are actually saying...you are saying that HTB can meet whoever they wish when they so choose (it's irrelevent whether you say this is to save Islam, because everyone claims they are working for Islam, even Tablighi's, and Jihidists, and even Ed...so all cite the same reason, so this is an issue of the heart)

You are saying that when HTB decides to meet the "heads of Kufr" and politely ask them not to ban them, it's all fine. But NO ONE else has the right to decide what is in Islam's interests according to how THEY define such interests???

My dear brother, HTB do not monopolise what is in Islams interests, and thus you cannot be a double standard!!! So the issue isn't who's meeting who, and definately isn't who KNOWS who but surely is the ideas themselves!!!

So in summary:

1) is it Ok for Maajid to KNOW people you don't like, and decide to conduct his affairs with them on how he sees suits the interests of Islam??

2) Do HT monopolise the definition of what is in the interests of Islam, thus making them the sole group that is allowed to approach the "heads of Kufr"?

Please consider this carefully as further argumentation on this point is only going to entrench you further into your contradiction, may Allah (swt) alleviate you from it. Amin.

[Yoda]

always two there are, no more, no less: a master and an apprentice

[yoda]

Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.

[Obi 1]

Original post still stands it is not the meeting you can phsycobabble all you want, its about the position you take when you meet, One calls for the right to political self determination through the establishment of a Caliphate, whilst the others calls this lot extremist seeking sharia law in the Muslim lands, anyway whats your hang up with the HTB lot (Suprised)take it you have given your oath of obedience to the 56 rulers, when Benizir gets in with the aid of the Americans will you go and give her your ba' yah. Take it you thought the two women in Bangladesh were also legit whilst they were in post

[Surprised]

Obi 1
You didn't answer my question about whether its Ok for Maajid to merely KNOW someone (That was the topic) and instead have gone back to your hang up with Ed and his hypothetical meeting with Parliament (which hasn't even happened), which I am NOT talking about, and this thread wasn't about that from before you came.

You didn't answer whether HT have a monopoly on defining what is in the interests of Islam, and instead went back to what you THINK should be said to the government and what you THINK shouldn't, when I am asking whether you allow for others to also have THEIR OWN opinions on that matter.

Since you have't even tried to answer my questions summarised for you above in my last post, I will not entertain you any further.

...and Yoda, what is it about the internet that makes people rude, do they not think that Allah still knows who they are? I challenge you to meet me and speak like that infront of me. I'd say that it is pretty dark to anonymously try to mock another Muslim, don't you feel cowardly.

"He from whose hands and tongue another Muslim is safe, is a real Muslim" (Hadith of the Prophet (saw).

Its so simple, you can get reward from Allah if you refrain from being rude to your brother, son't you want that?

Salam